那先比丘經

MIDDLE VOLUME - I. QUESTIONS CONCERNING CONSCIOUSNESS - 1. FEELINGS OF SUFFERING AND HAPPINESS

The king asked: “Venerable sir, when a person feels happiness within, is that wholesome or unwholesome? When a person feels suffering within, is that wholesome or unwholesome? Did the Buddha teach that phenomena are pleasant or painful? It would seem, then, that conditioned phenomena are not suffering.”

Nāgasena then asked the king: “Great King, suppose a person heats an iron ball until it is red-hot and holds it in the palm of his hand. Would that iron ball cause him great discomfort? Again, suppose he tightly holds a lump of ice in the other palm. Would that lump of ice cause him great discomfort?”

The king replied: “Certainly, both have the same power to cause discomfort.”

Nāgasena asked the king: “Then are the objects in that person’s two hands both hot?”

“They are not both hot.”

“Or are they both cold?”

“Neither are they both cold.”

Nāgasena said: “Both objects cause discomfort. I have questioned the Great King twice. If both are hot, you should say that both are hot; if both are cold, you should say that both are cold. Since one is cold and the other hot, how can both be said to cause discomfort to the person?”

The king said: “My wisdom is insufficient to understand this matter clearly. I beseech the venerable sir to explain it to me.”

Nāgasena replied: “The Buddha’s scriptures state: There are six things that cause people to become immersed in happiness, six things that cause people to become immersed in sorrow, another six things that cause people to be unhappy, and six things that cause people to be neither happy nor sorrowful.

“There are also six things that help people become free from happiness, and six things that help people become free from sorrow.”

The king asked: “What are the six things that cause people to become immersed in happiness?”

Nāgasena replied: “First, when the eye sees something, one longs inwardly to possess it forever and therefore becomes happy. Second, when the ear hears a pleasing sound, one longs inwardly to possess it forever and therefore becomes happy. Third, when the nose smells a fragrance, one longs inwardly to possess it forever and therefore becomes happy. Fourth, when the tongue tastes a delicious flavor, one longs inwardly to possess it forever and therefore becomes happy. Fifth, when the body experiences a pleasant touch, one longs inwardly to possess it forever and therefore becomes happy. Sixth, when happiness arises in the mind, one longs inwardly to possess it forever and therefore becomes happy. These are the six things that cause people to become immersed in happiness.”

The king asked again: “What are the six things that help people become free from happiness?”

Nāgasena replied: “First, when the eye sees a beautiful form, one recollects that it cannot remain so forever. A mind of relinquishment then arises, and one reflects upon and clearly comprehends impermanence; thereby one becomes free from happiness.

“Second, when the ear hears a pleasing sound, one recollects that it cannot remain so forever. A mind of relinquishment then arises; thereby one becomes free from happiness.

“Third, when the nose smells a fragrance, one recollects that it cannot remain so forever. A mind of relinquishment then arises; thereby one becomes free from happiness.

“Fourth, when the tongue tastes a delicious flavor, one recollects that it cannot remain so forever. A mind of relinquishment then arises; thereby one becomes free from happiness.

“Fifth, when the body experiences a pleasant touch, one recollects that it cannot remain so forever. A mind of relinquishment then arises; thereby one becomes free from happiness.

“Sixth, when the mind thinks of sensual desire, one recollects that it cannot remain so forever. A mind of relinquishment then arises; thereby one becomes free from happiness.

“These are the six things that help people become free from happiness.”

The king asked: “What are the six things that cause people to become immersed in sorrow?”

Nāgasena replied: “First, when the eye must see what it dislikes, sorrow arises in the mind. Second, when the ear must hear what it does not wish to hear, sorrow arises in the mind. Third, when the nose must smell odors it dislikes, sorrow arises in the mind. Fourth, when the tongue must taste flavors it dislikes, sorrow arises in the mind. Fifth, when the body must experience contacts it dislikes, sorrow arises in the mind. Sixth, when the mind must think of and imagine things it dislikes, sorrow arises in the mind. These are the six things that cause people to become immersed in sorrow.”

The king asked: “What are the six things that cause people to be unhappy?”

Nāgasena replied: “First, when the eye sees ugly forms, it causes one to be unhappy. Second, when the ear hears unpleasant sounds, it causes one to be unhappy. Third, when the nose smells foul odors, it causes one to be unhappy. Fourth, when the tongue tastes pungent or bitter flavors, it causes one to be unhappy. Fifth, when the body touches coarse and rough objects, it causes one to be unhappy. Sixth, when the mind harbors resentment and hatred, it causes one to be unhappy. These are the six things that cause people to be unhappy.”

The king asked again: “What are the six things that cause people to be neither sorrowful nor happy?”

Nāgasena replied: “First, when the eye sees a form, the mind is neither sorrowful nor happy. Second, when the ear hears a sound, the mind is neither sorrowful nor happy. Third, when the nose smells a fragrance, the mind is neither sorrowful nor happy. Fourth, when the tongue tastes a flavor, the mind is neither sorrowful nor happy. Fifth, when the body experiences contact, the mind is neither sorrowful nor happy. Sixth, when a thought arises in the mind, the mind is neither sorrowful nor happy. These are the six things that cause people to be neither sorrowful nor happy.”

The king asked again: “What are the six things that help people become free from sorrow?”

Nāgasena replied: “First, when the eye beholds death, one thereby reflects that one’s own body and all things are impermanent. That person thinks: I have attained this understanding; how could I fail to attain the Path? In this way, one becomes free from sorrow.

“Second, the ear takes no delight in fine or unusual sounds. That person thinks: I have attained this understanding; how could I fail to attain the Path? In this way, one becomes free from sorrow.

“Third, the nose takes no delight in fragrant scents. That person thinks: I have attained this understanding; how could I fail to attain the Path? In this way, one becomes free from sorrow.

“Fourth, the tongue does not fear bland or bitter flavors. That person thinks: I have attained this understanding; how could I fail to attain the Path? In this way, one becomes free from sorrow.

“Fifth, the body takes no delight in soft contacts. That person thinks: I have attained this understanding; how could I fail to attain the Path? In this way, one becomes free from sorrow.

“Sixth, the mind takes no delight in sensual desire. That person thinks: I have attained this understanding; how could I fail to attain the Path? In this way, one becomes free from sorrow.

“These are the six things that help people become free from sorrow.”

The king praised him, saying: “Excellent! Excellent!”

2. AFTER DEATH

The king asked: “After a person has died, what will be born again in the next life?”

Nāgasena replied: “Name-and-form will be born again in the next life.”

The king asked: “Is it the name-and-form of this life that is born again?”

Nāgasena replied: “No! It is neither the name nor the form of this life that is born again. Yet because the name-and-form of this life performs wholesome and unwholesome deeds, name-and-form arises accordingly in the next life.”

The king asked: “If, as you say, the name-and-form of this life performs wholesome or unwholesome deeds, yet that name-and-form is not born in the next life, then could a person who commits acts of extreme evil ultimately escape and not have to undergo suffering?”

Nagasena replied: “If a person in this present life performs good deeds and is afterward not born again, can it be said that he has attained liberation? Yet people ceaselessly perform both good and evil deeds; therefore, they cannot escape the fruits of karma.

“Suppose a man were to steal mangoes belonging to another. The owner caught him, brought him before the king, and complained: ‘This man stole my mangoes.’

“The mango thief then said: ‘I did not steal this man’s mangoes. Long ago, he planted only a young mango tree; he did not plant any mango fruit. Now I have picked mangoes with my own hands, so how can this be called theft? I did not pick his mangoes, and therefore I am not guilty.’”

Nagasena asked the king: “Great King, when these two dispute in this way, who is right and who is wrong?”

The king replied: “The man who planted the young mango tree is right. The thief’s argument is without reason, and he must be found guilty.”

Nagasena asked: “Why is the thief guilty?”

The king replied: “He is said to be guilty because the mango tree planted long ago grew tall and bore the fruit that exists today.”

Nagasena said: “Human birth is likewise. In this life, with this name-and-form, one performs good and evil deeds and, in accordance with them, takes birth in a future life. The good and evil deeds performed in this life are the root cause.

“Suppose someone were to steal another person’s rice harvest. The owner of the field caught him and said: ‘You have stolen my rice.’

“The man said: ‘I did not steal your rice. You planted seedlings in the field, whereas I myself cut and took the rice. How can you call me a thief?’

“The two parties disputed and went together before the king, where they presented the matter. In such a case, who is right and who is wrong?”

The king replied: “The man who planted the seedlings is right, and the man who stole the rice harvest is wrong.”

Nagasena asked: “How do you know that the man who stole the rice harvest is wrong?”

The king said: “Because planting the seedlings was the cause. If no one had planted the seedlings, how could there have been ears of rice?”

Nagasena said: “Human birth is likewise. In this life, with this name-and-form, one performs good and evil deeds and, in accordance with them, takes birth in a future life. The good and evil deeds performed in this life are the root cause.

“Suppose that, on a bitterly cold winter day, a man kindled a fire in his house to warm himself. He left the fire burning and went away. Gradually, the fire caught the wall of the house and burned the house down, then spread to neighboring houses. The owner of one of the damaged houses seized the man and brought him before the king, saying: ‘This man kindled a fire and burned down my house.’

“The man said: ‘I kindled only a small fire to warm myself. I did not set the house ablaze.’”

Nagasena asked the king: “In this case, who is right and who is wrong?”

The king replied: “The man who kindled the fire is wrong, for the conflagration arose from that very fire.”

Nagasena said: “Human birth is likewise. In this life, with this name-and-form, one performs good and evil deeds and, in accordance with them, takes birth in a future life. The good and evil deeds performed in this life are the root cause.

“Suppose that at night a man lit a torch, fixed it to a wall, and ate his meal by its light. Burning embers fell from the torch and set the wall on fire. The flames then consumed his entire house and spread until the whole great city was ablaze. The people of the city came together and asked him: ‘Why did you kindle the fire that burned this entire city?’

“The man replied: ‘I merely lit a small torch to illuminate my meal. The great fire that consumed this entire city was not my fire.’

“In this way, the two parties continued disputing and dragged one another before the king, where they related the whole matter.”

The Venerable Nagasena asked the king: “In this case, who is right and who is wrong?”

The king replied: “The man who lit the fire is wrong.”

Nagasena asked: “How do you know?”

The king replied: “Because the conflagration arose from that man’s own fire. After finishing his meal, he failed to extinguish it and allowed it to spread until it burned the entire city.”

Nagasena said: “Human birth is likewise. In this life, with this name-and-form, one performs good and evil deeds and, in accordance with them, takes birth in a future life. The good and evil deeds performed in this life are the root cause.

“Because people are deluded and ignorant, they perform good and evil deeds and thus cannot escape birth and death.

“Suppose a man brought betrothal gifts and became engaged to a girl who was still a child. After the girl grew up, another man brought wedding gifts and took her as his wife. The man who had previously become engaged to her then came and said: ‘Why have you married my wife?’

“The other man replied: ‘Long ago, you became engaged to a girl who was still a child, whereas I have now married a young woman who is fully grown. How, then, can you say that I have married your wife?’

“The two men disputed and went together before the king to request his judgment.”

Nagasena asked: “Great King, in such a case, who is right and who is wrong?”

The king replied: “The man who first brought the betrothal gifts is right.”

Nagasena asked: “How does the Great King know that he is right?”

The king replied: “The young woman is the very same person as the girl who was formerly a child and has now grown up. Therefore, the man who brought the betrothal gifts first is right, for the girl was already regarded as his wife.”

Nagasena said: “Human birth is likewise. In this life, with this name-and-form, one performs good and evil deeds and, in accordance with them, takes birth in a future life. The good and evil deeds performed in this life are the root cause.

“Suppose a man brought a jar to the home of a cattle keeper to buy milk. After buying the milk, he departed but left the jar of milk there, saying to the owner: ‘I shall return later to collect it.’

“He went away and returned not long afterward. By then, the milk had turned into curds. The man said to the cattle keeper: ‘I entrusted a jar of fresh milk to you. Why do you now give me a jar of curds?’

“The milk seller said: ‘This is your very own milk; it has merely turned into curds by itself.’

“The two men disputed, neither yielding to the other, and went together before the king to ask him to settle the matter.”

Nagasena asked the king: “In this case, Great King, whom would you judge to be right and whom wrong?”

The king replied: “The milk seller is right.”

Nagasena asked: “How does the Great King know this?”

The king replied: “The buyer bought the milk and left it there, and it turned into curds by itself. What fault could the milk seller have?”

Nagasena said: “Human birth is likewise. In this life, with this name-and-form, one performs good and evil deeds and, in accordance with them, takes birth in a future life. The good and evil deeds performed in this life are the root cause.

3. THE CAUSE OF REBIRTH

The king asked again: “Venerable sir, will you still have to be born again in a future life?”

Nagasena replied: “Great King, you are asking again about what I have already said. If I still retain affection and craving, I shall certainly be reborn in a future life. If affection and craving are completely extinguished, I shall not be reborn in a future life.

“Suppose a man exerted all his strength in service to the king. The king recognized this and therefore rewarded him with abundant riches. Having been richly rewarded, the man had ample food, drink, and clothing and lived a joyful life. Yet, when the occasion arose in conversation, he said: ‘I rendered meritorious service to the king, but the king has never rewarded me.’”

Nagasena asked the king: “That man had already been rewarded, but afterward asserted the contrary, saying that he had never received a reward. Was his statement correct?”

The king replied: “That man’s statement was indeed incorrect.”

Nagasena said, “Therefore, I told Your Majesty: So long as I still harbor affectionate attachment, I shall certainly be reborn in a future life. If affectionate attachment is completely extinguished, I shall not be reborn in a future life.”

The king praised him, saying, “Excellent! Excellent!”

4. NAME AND BODY

The king again asked, “Just now, Venerable Sir, you taught about the name and body of a person. What, then, is name? What is body?”

Nagasena replied, “What Your Majesty now sees existing here is body; what thinks and knows within the mind is name.”

The king again asked, “Why can name arise in a future life, whereas the body cannot?”

Nagasena replied, “Body and name are mutually related from one existence to the next. It is like a chick embryo within an egg: it must be surrounded by the egg white and shell before it can later hatch into a chick. The name and body of a person are mutually related in the same way and cannot be separated.”

The king praised him, saying, “Excellent! Excellent!”

5. THE WHEEL OF BIRTH AND DEATH

The king again asked Nagasena, “What is long-lasting?”

Nagasena replied, “The past is long, and the future is also long. What is presently seen does not endure long.”

The king said, “Excellent!”

The king again asked, “In truth, does such long duration actually exist or not?”

Nagasena replied, “Such long duration may exist, or it may not.”

The king asked, “What is meant by its existence? What is meant by its nonexistence?”

Nagasena replied, “For those who have attained nirvana, there is no longer any such long duration. For those who have not yet attained the Path and still wander through the cycle of birth and death, there is necessarily long duration. Amid that long course of transmigration, those who practice generosity in this life and are filial toward their parents will certainly enjoy meritorious rewards in the next life.”

The king praised him, saying, “Excellent! Excellent!”

The king again asked, “Of the three—the past, the future, and the present—what is their root?”

Nagasena replied, “When all three—the past, the future, and the present—are examined, ignorance is their very root. When ignorance arises, consciousness arises. When consciousness arises, the body comes into being. The body gives rise to name, and name gives rise to form. Form gives rise to the six kinds of cognition. These six kinds of cognition are cognition by the eye, cognition by the ear, cognition by the nose, cognition by the tongue, cognition by the body, and cognition by the mind. These six kinds of cognition all turn outward.

“What does it mean to turn outward? The eye pursues visible forms, the ear pursues sounds, the nose pursues fragrances, the tongue pursues flavors, the body pursues tactile contacts, and the mind pursues sensual desire. These are the six outward pursuits, called the six ayatanas. Contact is conjunction, through which pain and pleasure are known. From pain and pleasure arises affectionate attachment; from affectionate attachment in turn arises craving; from craving arises clinging to existence, which then becomes the cause of aging and decline. Aging and decline are the cause of the suffering of illness. The suffering of illness is the cause of death. From death arise grief, pain, sorrow, and anguish within the mind.

“Thus, this conjunction is entirely suffering and affliction, and because of this conjunction, it is provisionally designated as a person. Because of this, a person continually revolves through birth and death without ever stopping. To seek the body of a former existence is truly impossible.

“It is like a person who cultivates rice: he sows the seed, which sprouts into a plant, puts forth leaves, flowers, and bears grain, until at last there is rice to harvest. The next year he plants again and again obtains more rice.”

Nagasena asked, “If that rice farmer plants every year, will there ever be a time when the rice crop is cut off and no rice remains?”

The king replied, “If he plants every year, there will certainly never be a time when the rice crop is cut off and no rice remains.”

Nagasena said, “Human beings are the same. They revolve onward and are born in succession, without any interruption.

“It is like a hen that lays an egg, and the egg hatches into a hen... thus they continue to be born in succession. The birth and death of human beings are the same, and therefore there is never any interruption.”

The Venerable Nagasena then bent down and drew a round wheel upon the ground, asking the king, “Your Majesty, is there any corner or edge anywhere on this wheel?”

The king replied, “It is round, so it has no corners or edges.”

Nagasena said, “The Buddha’s sutras teach that the birth and death of human beings are like this round wheel, continually revolving without ever coming to an end.

“Through the eye, a person sees the visible forms of the myriad things and thereby cognizes them. Thus, three things come together. From their conjunction arises pain or pleasure. From pain and pleasure arises affectionate attachment; from affectionate attachment arises craving. From craving arises the cause of clinging to existence. From clinging to existence comes life. Because of life, one performs good and evil deeds. Because one performs good and evil deeds, one must undergo rebirth.

“Through the ear, a person hears sounds and thereby cognizes them. Thus, three things come together. From their conjunction arises pain or pleasure. From pain and pleasure arises affectionate attachment; from affectionate attachment arises craving. From craving arises the cause of clinging to existence. From clinging to existence comes life. Because of life, one performs good and evil deeds. Because one performs good and evil deeds, one must undergo rebirth.

“Through the nose, a person smells fragrances and thereby cognizes them. Thus, three things come together. From their conjunction arises pain or pleasure. From pain and pleasure arises affectionate attachment; from affectionate attachment arises craving. From craving arises the cause of clinging to existence. Because of clinging to existence, life comes to be. Because of life, one performs good and evil deeds. Because one performs good and evil deeds, one must undergo rebirth.

“Through the tongue, a person tastes flavors and thereby cognizes them. Thus, three things come together. From their conjunction arises pain or pleasure. From pain and pleasure arises affectionate attachment; from affectionate attachment arises craving. From craving arises the cause of clinging to existence. From clinging to existence comes life. Because of life, one performs good and evil deeds. Because one performs good and evil deeds, one must undergo rebirth.

“Through the body, a person comes into contact with things that are soft or coarse and thereby cognizes them. Thus, three things come together. From their conjunction arises pain or pleasure. From pain and pleasure arises affectionate attachment; from affectionate attachment arises craving. From craving arises the cause of clinging to existence. From clinging to existence comes life. Because of life, one performs good and evil deeds. Because one performs good and evil deeds, one must undergo rebirth.

“Through the mind, a person thinks about things and thereby cognizes them. Thus, three things come together. From their conjunction arises pain or pleasure. From pain and pleasure arises affectionate attachment; from affectionate attachment arises craving. From craving arises the cause of clinging to existence. From clinging to existence comes life. Because of life, one performs good and evil deeds. Because one performs good and evil deeds, one must undergo rebirth.

“In this way, human beings continue to be born in unbroken succession, without ever stopping.”

The king praised him, saying, “Excellent!”

6. THE ORIGIN OF BIRTH AND DEATH

The king again asked Nagasena, “Venerable Sir, you taught that the starting point of human birth and death cannot be found. What does it mean to say that it cannot be found?”

Nagasena replied, “If there were a starting point, there would no longer be any need to be born again. Moreover, if there were a starting point, it would necessarily already lie in the past.”

The king said: “I maintain that if there is no point of origin, there can be no renewed birth. If a point of origin can be found, it must lie in the past. Thus, is that point of origin without end?”

Nāgasena replied: “That is correct; all of it belongs to the past.”

The king again asked Nāgasena: “Can beings within birth and death gain further benefit through anything external?”

Nāgasena asked the king in return: “Can human beings and all the large and small animals in the world gain further benefit through anything external?”

The king said: “I am not asking you about human beings and all the large and small animals in the world. I wish to ask you only about the fundamental basis of human birth and death.”

Nāgasena said: “When trees arise, saplings are their basis. When the five kinds of grain arise, seeds are their basis. Among all the great and small things between heaven and earth, each has a basis from which it arises according to its kind. For human beings, the six bonds of affectionate craving are the basis.

“A person has eyes: there are visible forms, seeing, and cognition; has ears: there are sounds, hearing, and cognition; has a nose: there are odors, smelling, and cognition; has a tongue: there are flavors, tasting, and cognition; has a body: there are tangible objects, contact, and cognition; and has a mind: there are dharmas and cognition. From these eighteen dhatus arise suffering and pleasure. From suffering and pleasure arises affectionate craving. From affectionate craving arises sensual desire. From sensual desire arises contact and conjunction.

“These conditions of suffering come together to constitute a human being. The eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, and mind bring about attachment to the six sense objects and, together with contact and conjunction, constitute the six ayatanas. From these six ayatanas comes the awareness of suffering and pleasure. From suffering and pleasure arises affectionate craving; following affectionate craving, sensual desire arises; from sensual desire arises attachment to existence, which then becomes the cause of aging and decline. Aging and decline are the cause of sickness and suffering. Sickness and suffering are the cause of death. From death arise grief, pain, sorrow, and anguish in the mind. Such is human life.

“If there were no eyes, there would be no seeing of visible forms and no cognition. Without cognition, there would be no contact and conjunction. Without contact and conjunction, there would be no suffering or pleasure. Without suffering and pleasure, affectionate craving would not arise. Without affectionate craving, there would be no sensual desire. Without sensual desire, there would be no attachment to existence. Without attachment to existence, there would be no aging, sickness, or death, nor would there be grief, pain, sorrow, or anguish in the mind. One would thereby be liberated from every affliction and attain entry into the realm of nirvana.

“Likewise, without ears one would not hear sounds; without a nose one would not smell odors; without a tongue one would not taste flavors; without a body there would be no tangible contact; and without a mind no thoughts would arise and there would be no contact through the sense entrances. Without contact through the sense entrances, there would be no suffering or pleasure. Without suffering and pleasure, affectionate craving would not arise. Without affectionate craving, there would be no sensual desire. Without sensual desire, there would be no embryo. Without an embryo, there would be no place of birth, no aging, sickness, or death, and no grief, pain, sorrow, or anguish in the mind. With every affliction brought to an end, one would attain entry into the realm of nirvana.”

The king praised him, saying: “Excellent!”

7. ARISING THROUGH CAUSES AND CONDITIONS

The king again asked the Venerable Nāgasena: “Is there anything in the world that arises spontaneously?”

Nāgasena replied: “Nothing arises spontaneously. Everything must have a cause.”

Nāgasena then asked the king: “This palace in which Your Majesty now resides—was it built through human effort, or did it arise spontaneously?”

The king replied: “It was made by human labor. The timber was taken from the forest, and the bricks used to build the walls were made from earth.”

Nāgasena said: “A human being is likewise. A human being is formed through the harmonious conjunction of the eighteen dhatus. Therefore, it is said that nothing arises spontaneously; everything must have a cause. It is like a potter making various vessels: he must mix clay with water, knead and shape it, and fire it before a vessel is produced. That clay cannot spontaneously become a vessel. Human effort must be fully applied, and it must also be fired until it is baked before the vessel is completed. Therefore, it is said that nothing arises spontaneously; everything must have a cause.”

Nāgasena again asked the king: “If a lute had no strings, no frets, and no one to play it, could it produce sound?”

The king replied: “No, it could not spontaneously produce sound.”

Nāgasena asked: “If the lute had strings and frets, and someone played it, would it produce sound?”

The king replied: “Venerable sir, it would.”

Nāgasena said: “So it is. Therefore, under heaven nothing arises spontaneously; everything must have a cause.”

Nāgasena again asked the king: “Consider kindling fire by rubbing wood together. If there were no two pieces of wood and no one to rub them together, could there be fire?”

The king replied: “There could be no fire.”

Nāgasena asked: “If there were both pieces of wood and someone rubbed them together, would fire arise?”

The king replied: “Certainly, fire would arise in that way.”

Nāgasena said: “So it is. Therefore, under heaven nothing arises spontaneously; everything must have a cause.”

Nāgasena again asked: “If there were no one to hold a burning-glass and no sunlight to heat it, could there be fire?”

The king replied: “There could be no fire.”

Nāgasena asked: “If someone held that burning-glass and sunlight heated it, could there be fire?”

The king replied: “Certainly, fire would arise in that way.”

Nāgasena said: “So it is. Therefore, under heaven nothing arises spontaneously; everything must have a cause.”

Nāgasena again asked the king: “If a person had no mirror and there were no light, yet wished to look at himself, could he see himself?”

The king replied: “He could not see himself.”

Nāgasena asked: “If there were a mirror and light, and a person looked at himself, could he see himself?”

The king replied: “Certainly, he could see himself.”

Nāgasena said: “So it is. Therefore, under heaven nothing arises spontaneously; everything must have a cause.”

The king praised him, saying: “Excellent!”

8. THE SELF

The king again asked Nāgasena: “Do people in the world truly possess a self?”

Nāgasena replied: “The world cannot clearly determine whether or not there is a self. In truth, what does Your Majesty consider the self to be?”

The king asked: “Are this body and its life-force the self?”

Nāgasena asked the king in return: “Can a person’s body and life-force use the eyes to see visible forms? Can they use the ears to hear sounds? Can they use the nose to smell odors? Can they use the tongue to taste flavors? Can they use the body to perceive tangible contact? Can they use the mind to think and know?”

The king replied: “They can.”

Nāgasena asked: “At present, this humble monk and Your Majesty are together in this hall, which has windows on all four sides. If someone wished to look outside, could he look out through any of those windows as he pleased?”

The king replied: “He could.”

Nāgasena again asked: “If it is said that the self dwells within this body, it should be able to see and know at will through any of the openings leading outside, just as it can use the eyes to see visible forms. Could it then use the ears to see visible forms? Could it use the nose to see visible forms? Could it use the tongue to see visible forms? Could it use the body to see visible forms? Could it use the mind to see visible forms?”

The king replied: “It could not.”

Nagasena continued: “If, as you say, the self dwells in the ear and can therefore use the ear to hear sounds, can it then use the ear to see? Can it use the ear to smell odors? Can it use the ear to taste flavors? Can it use the ear to perceive contact? Can it use the ear to think?”

The king replied: “It cannot.”

Nagasena continued: “If, as you say, the self dwells in the nose and can therefore use the nose to smell odors, can it then use the nose to hear sounds? Can it use the nose to taste flavors? Can it use the nose to perceive contact? Can it use the nose to think?”

The king replied: “It cannot.”

Nagasena continued: “If, as you say, the self dwells in the tongue and can therefore use the tongue to discern flavors, can it then use the tongue to hear sounds? Can it use the tongue to smell odors? Can it use the tongue to perceive contact? Can it use the tongue to think?”

The king replied: “It cannot.”

Nagasena continued: “If, as you say, the self dwells in the body and can therefore use the body to discern contact that is soft or rough, can it then use the body to see? Can it use the body to hear sounds? Can it use the body to smell odors? Can it use the body to taste flavors? Can it use the body to think?”

The king replied: “It cannot.”

Nagasena continued: “If, as you say, the self dwells in the mind and can therefore use the mind to think, can it then use the mind to hear sounds? Can it use the mind to smell odors? Can it use the mind to taste flavors? Can it use the mind to perceive contact?”

The king replied: “None of these is possible.”

Nagasena said: “Thus, Your Majesty’s statements are inconsistent from beginning to end.

“Suppose this humble monk and Your Majesty were sitting in this hall, and all four windows were now removed. Would our field of vision become farther and wider?”

The king replied: “It certainly would become farther and wider.”

Nagasena said: “If, as you say, the self dwells within the body, then if the eyes were destroyed, would the field of vision become farther and wider? If the ears were destroyed, would one hear farther? If the nostrils were destroyed, would one smell from farther away? If the tongue were destroyed, would one taste more flavors? If all the skin were stripped away, would the body experience more sensations of contact? If the mind were destroyed, would one thereby think more broadly?”

The king replied: “Venerable sir, none of these things is possible.”

Nagasena said: “Therefore, Your Majesty’s statements are inconsistent from beginning to end.”

Nagasena again asked the king: “Your Majesty, suppose the keeper of the treasury came and stood in attendance before you. Would Your Majesty know that he was standing in attendance before you?”

The king replied: “I would know.”

Nagasena asked further: “If that man then entered Your Majesty’s chamber, would you know that he had entered the chamber?”

The king replied: “I would know.”

Nagasena said: “If it is maintained that the self originally dwells within the body, then when foods are placed upon the tongue, can one discern flavors such as bland, salty, sweet, sour, pungent, and bitter?”

The king said: “Yes, one can discern them.”

Nagasena said: “Therefore, Your Majesty’s statements are inconsistent from beginning to end.

“Suppose someone poured fine wine into a great vat and then lowered a man into that vat, but the wine did not reach his mouth. Would that man know whether the wine was fine?”

The king replied: “He could not know.”

Nagasena asked: “Why would he not know?”

The king replied: “Because the wine did not enter his mouth or touch his tongue, he could not know whether the wine was fine or poor.”

Nagasena said: “Therefore, Your Majesty’s statements are inconsistent from beginning to end.”

The king said: “I am indeed ignorant and of shallow wisdom, and I cannot reason through this matter. I respectfully ask the venerable sir to explain it clearly.”

Nagasena said: “Through the eye, a person sees forms, and the mind immediately experiences feeling. From feeling arise experiences of suffering and pleasure, and the mind then follows after them as its conditions. The same is true of the ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind: whenever they come into contact with external objects, they cause feeling to arise in the mind. From feeling arise experiences of suffering and pleasure, and because of them, perceptions and thoughts arise in the mind. Such perceptions and thoughts arise in succession, forming a stream that continues revolving without end. There is, in truth, no permanent self that always governs, as Your Majesty supposes.”

The king praised him, saying: “Excellent!”

9. THE SENSE FACULTIES AND CONSCIOUSNESS

The king asked again: “Venerable sir, when a person is born, do the eye and the mind arise at the same time?”

Nagasena replied: “Yes, they arise simultaneously.”

The king asked further: “Does the eye arise first, or does the mind arise first?”

Nagasena replied: “The eye arises first, and the mind arises afterward.”

The king asked: “Then does the eye say to the mind: ‘Wherever I arise, you should follow and arise afterward’? Or does the mind say this to the eye?

“Or does the mind say to the eye: ‘Wherever you arise, I shall follow and arise afterward’? Or does the eye say this to the mind?”

Nagasena replied: “The two never communicate with each other in this way.”

The king asked: “Did the venerable sir not say that they arise simultaneously? Why, then, do they not communicate with each other beforehand in this way?”

Nagasena replied: “There are four cases in which things follow one another without needing to communicate or make a prior agreement. What are the four? First, following a downward course; second, following a single gateway; third, following a preexisting track; and fourth, following repeatedly acquired experience. In these four cases, things can act in conformity with one another without any prior agreement.”

The king asked: “What is meant by following a downward course?”

Nagasena asked the king: “When rain falls upon a high mountain, how does the water flow?”

The king replied: “The water flows downward from high ground to low ground.”

Nagasena asked further: “If rain falls there again later, how does the water flow?”

The king replied: “Because it follows the downward course from high ground to low ground, it follows the same channels through which the earlier water flowed.”

Nagasena asked the king: “Does the water flowing first say to the water flowing afterward: ‘You should follow the course along which I flowed’? Or does the water flowing afterward say to the water flowing first: ‘I shall flow along the course by which you flowed’? Do the two communicate and make such an agreement beforehand?”

The king replied: “The water flowing first and the water flowing afterward both flow naturally; they do not communicate with each other in that way.”

Nagasena said: “The eye is the same. It never says beforehand to the mind: ‘You should follow the place where I arise and arise afterward.’ Nor does the mind say to the eye: ‘I shall follow the place where you arise and arise afterward.’ The eye and the mind make no prior agreement with each other; they naturally arise in the appropriate place. This is called following a downward course. The ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind are all likewise.”

The king asked further: “Then what is meant by following a single gateway?”

Nagasena asked the king: “Suppose a great city had only one gate through which to leave. If a person within the city wished to go out, in which direction would he go?”

The king replied: “He would naturally go toward that gate and leave through it.”

Nagasena asked: “If another person later also wished to go out, in which direction would he go?”

The king replied: “He would naturally follow the same road to the gate as the first person.”

Nagasena asked the king: “Does the person who leaves first say to the person leaving afterward: ‘You should follow the road by which I left’? Or does the person leaving afterward say to the person who left first: ‘I shall follow the road by which you left’? Do the two communicate and make such an agreement beforehand?”

The king replied, “The one in front and the one behind truly have no exchange or prior agreement with each other.”

Nāgasena said, “The eye is likewise. It never says beforehand to the mind, ‘You should arise after me wherever I arise.’ Nor does the mind say to the eye, ‘I shall arise after you wherever you arise.’ The eye and the mind make no prior agreement with each other; they naturally arise in the appropriate place. This is called following a single gateway. The ear, nose, tongue, body, and mental faculty are all likewise.”

The king asked again, “And what is it to follow a previously established track?”

Nāgasena asked the king, “When a cart traveling in front leaves tracks, how will the cart behind it proceed?”

The king replied, “It will follow the tracks of the cart in front.”

Nāgasena asked, “Did the cart in front say to the cart behind, ‘You should follow the road that I traveled before you’? Or did the cart behind say to the cart in front, ‘I shall follow the road that you traveled’? Did the two exchange words and make such a prior agreement with each other?”

The king replied, “Neither said any such thing to the other.”

Nāgasena said, “A person is likewise. The eye never says beforehand to the mind, ‘You should arise after me wherever I arise.’ Nor does the mind say to the eye, ‘I shall arise after you wherever you arise.’ The eye and the mind make no prior agreement with each other; they naturally arise in the appropriate place. This is called following a single gateway. The ear, nose, tongue, body, and mental faculty are all likewise.”

The king again asked Nāgasena, “And what is it to follow experience acquired through many repetitions?”

Nāgasena replied, “Acquired experience is the imitation of what was done before. Learning and writing, for example, both depend upon past experience.

“The eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mental faculty are likewise. Because they have gradually been conditioned through long ages, they are now as they are.

“All six consciousnesses contribute to a person’s cognition; cognition is not produced by any one of those six consciousnesses alone.”

The king praised him, “Excellent!”

10. CONTACT AND ENTRANCE

The king asked again, “When a person is born, do the eye and pleasant or painful feeling arise simultaneously?”

Nāgasena replied, “The eye and pleasant or painful feeling arise together. All the faculties arise through a place where things come together.”

The king asked, “What is a place where things come together?”

Nāgasena replied, “When two sides touch each other, that is called conjunction. It is like two goats butting each other. One represents the eye and the other visible form; when the two come together, they constitute a sphere of entrance. It is also like one hand representing the eye and the other hand representing visible form; when the two hands come together, they constitute a sphere of entrance.

“Again, it is like two stones, one representing the eye and the other visible form; when the two stones come together, they constitute a sphere of entrance.

“The eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mental faculty are all faculties. When they come together with their objects—visible forms, sounds, fragrances, tastes, tangible objects, and mental objects—they constitute the six spheres of entrance. The same applies to the mental faculty and thought. It is like two stones, one representing the mental faculty and the other thought; when the two stones come together, they constitute a sphere of entrance. In this way, when the mental faculty and thought come together, they constitute a sphere of entrance.”

The king praised him, “Excellent!”

11. PLEASANT FEELING

The king asked again, “How should pleasure be understood?”

Nāgasena replied, “To experience and clearly know it oneself—that is pleasure. Suppose a person serves the king. That person is virtuous, so the king rewards him with various kinds of wealth. Having received the reward, he uses those things and takes delight and pleasure in them. While enjoying himself in this way, he thinks, ‘I served the king and was rewarded; that is why I now enjoy such pleasure.’

“Or suppose a person thinks wholesome thoughts, performs wholesome deeds with the body, and speaks wholesome words. Because of this, after death he is reborn in a heavenly realm. Born in that heavenly realm, he enjoys every kind of pleasure and feels exceedingly contented and joyful. He thinks, ‘While I was in the human world, I thought wholesome thoughts, performed wholesome deeds with the body, and spoke wholesome words. Because of that, I have now been born here and enjoy such supreme happiness.’ This is called experiencing and knowing.”

The king praised him, “Excellent!”

12. CLEAR COMPREHENSION AND COGNITION

The king asked again, “What is meant by one who cognizes?”

Nāgasena replied, “Through clear comprehension, one is able to cognize. Suppose, Great King, that your treasurer enters the treasury and personally examines every part of it. He then clearly comprehends how much money, gold, jade, jewels, cloth, and so forth it contains, what their colors are, and where they are located. This is called clear comprehension and cognition.”

The king said, “Excellent!”

13. THOUGHT

The king asked again, “Venerable sir, what of a person’s thoughts?”

Nāgasena replied, “A person’s thoughts are what lead to action.

“It is like a person who mixes poison to drink and also causes others to drink it. His own body suffers, and he causes suffering to others as well.

“In the same way, one who commits evil must fall into hell after death. Those who follow that person’s way of thinking must also fall into hell. Thus, an evil person’s evil thoughts lead to evil actions.”

The king said, “Excellent!”

14. INNER STIRRING

The king asked again, “And what is inner stirring?”

Nāgasena replied, “When a thought arises in the mind, there is immediately an inner stirring.”

The king asked, “What is the relationship between inner stirring and action?”

Nāgasena replied, “It is like a bronze pot placed over a fire to cook. The water boils, bubbles, and makes sounds. Even after the cooking has stopped, the sounds continue for a little while. Action is likewise: it occurs because of the inner stirring that preceded it.

“When the fire is lit and the water is brought to a boil, that is the time of stirring. When the cooking has stopped but the sounds continue for a while, that is the time of action.”

The king praised him, “Excellent!”

15. DISTINGUISHING

The king asked Nāgasena, “Can the things that have come together in consciousness be distinguished? For example, can one point out: Which is the sphere of entrance? Which is cognition? Which is thought? Which is intention? Which is stirring?”

Nāgasena replied, “Once they have come together, they can no longer be distinguished.

“Suppose a cook prepares a delicious dish containing water, meat, and seasonings such as scallions, garlic, ginger, pickled vegetables, rice flour, and so forth. The Great King says to that cook, ‘How did you prepare this dish? Bring each ingredient to me separately. First bring me the water, then the scallions, then the ginger, then the pickled vegetables, then the rice flour...’

“Once the dish has been cooked, could that person bring each flavor within it separately to the Great King?”

The king replied, “Once the dish has been cooked, the flavors within it can no longer be distinguished.”

Nāgasena said, “The matters we are discussing are likewise. Once they have come together, they can no longer be distinguished. One cannot point out, ‘This is painful or pleasant feeling; this is cognition; this is stirring; this is thought...’”

The king praised him, “Excellent! Excellent!”

The king again asked Nāgasena, “Can a person distinguish the salty taste of salt by looking at it with the eyes?”

Nāgasena asked in return, “Does the Great King cognize it in that way? Can the salty taste of salt be seen with the eyes?”

The king replied, “The eyes cannot see saltiness.”

Nāgasena said, “A person can know the salty taste of salt only with the tongue; it cannot be known with the eyes.”

The king further asked: “Does everyone use the tongue to perceive flavors?”

Nagasena replied: “Yes. Everyone uses the tongue to distinguish flavors.”

The king further asked: “Consider a cart carrying salt and the ox pulling it: can the cart and the ox distinguish the taste of the salt?”

Nagasena replied: “Neither the cart nor the ox can distinguish or know the taste of the salt.”

The king asked: “Can the saltiness of salt be weighed or measured?”

Nagasena replied: “Only through Your Majesty’s discerning wisdom can the saltiness of salt be estimated. The saltiness of salt cannot be weighed or measured; only its weight can be measured.”

The king said: “Excellent!”

16. SENSE FACULTIES AND SENSE OBJECTS

The king further asked: “Venerable sir, are the five kinds of cognition in the human body produced through many distinct conditions, or through only one?”

Nagasena replied: “They arise through many distinct conditions, not through only one. It is like the various kinds of grain that grow in a single plot of earth, each according to its own seed and kind.

“The five different kinds of sensory activity in the human body likewise depend upon many distinct conditions, each giving rise to cognition according to its own function.”

The king praised him, saying: “Excellent! Excellent!”

II. BIRTH, DEATH, AND NIRVANA — 1. DIFFERENCES IN KARMIC RESULTS

The king further asked Nagasena: “Venerable sir, people are born into the world with bodies that are originally complete in the same way. Why, then, do some live long while others die young; some suffer from many illnesses while others have few; some are rich and honored while others are poor and lowly; some are noble persons while others are petty persons; some are handsome while others are ugly and unpleasant to behold; some speak and are trusted by others while some are always viewed with suspicion; some are intelligent and filial while others are foolish and shallow-minded...? Why are there such differences?”

Nagasena said: “It is just like the various kinds of fruit trees: some bear sour fruit, others bitter fruit, some pungent fruit, and still others sweet fruit. Great King, why do the various trees bear fruits that are not all alike?”

The king replied: “Their fruits are not alike because their seeds and kinds are different.”

Nagasena said: “It is the same with human beings. The intentions held in their minds are not all alike, and therefore people in the world cannot all be the same. Some live long while others die young; some suffer from many illnesses while others have few; some are rich and honored while others are poor and lowly; some are noble persons while others are petty persons; some are handsome while others are ugly and unpleasant to behold; some speak and are trusted by others while some are always viewed with suspicion; some are intelligent and filial while others are foolish and shallow-minded...

“Therefore, the Buddha taught: ‘According to the good or evil deeds they have performed, people must themselves receive the resulting karma.’ Some are rich, honored, and prosperous, while others are impoverished and destitute—all of this results from the good and evil deeds performed in previous lives. Thus, each person receives the result according to his or her own merit and virtue.”

The king praised him: “Well spoken! Well spoken!”

2. GOOD DEEDS SHOULD BE DONE EARLY

The king further asked: “Venerable sir, when a person wishes to do good, should it be done beforehand, or should one wait and do it later?”

Nagasena replied: “One should do good early, beforehand. If one waits until later, one cannot obtain its benefit. Only by doing it early, beforehand, can one obtain great benefit.

“For example, if Your Majesty waits until you are thirsty before ordering someone to dig a well, could that relieve your thirst?”

The king replied: “It could not relieve my thirst. The well must have been dug beforehand.”

Nagasena said: “It is the same when people perform good deeds. They should do them beforehand. Waiting until it is too late is of no benefit.

“If Your Majesty waits until you are hungry before ordering someone to plow a field and sow seeds, would there be rice ready in time to eat? Or must rice have been stored beforehand?”

The king replied: “Rice must certainly have been stored beforehand.”

Nagasena said: “It is the same when people perform good deeds. They should do them beforehand. If they wait until they are in desperate need before acting, it will bring no benefit to them.

“If Your Majesty has enemies, should you wait until battle is required before ordering men to train the troops and horses?”

The king replied: “No. They must be trained beforehand so that they are ready to fight when the need arises. If one waits until they are needed before training the troops and horses, it will be useless.”

Nagasena said: “The Buddhist scriptures teach that people should be mindful of performing good deeds beforehand; waiting until later to do them is useless.

“Your Majesty should not abandon the great Way to follow false paths. Do not imitate the foolish by abandoning good and doing evil, for lamenting and weeping afterward will be useless. Those who abandon the right path and follow what is wrong will find, when they are about to die, that even repentance has come too late.”

The king praised him, saying: “Excellent! Excellent!”

3. HELL

The king asked Nagasena: “I have heard the ascetics teach that the fire in hell is unlike the fire of this world. If a small stone were burned in the fire of this world from morning until evening, it would not be consumed at all. Yet if a large boulder were cast into the fire of hell, it would be consumed immediately. I cannot believe such a statement.

“The ascetics also teach that those who commit evil deeds fall into hell, where they undergo suffering for tens of millions of years without being consumed or dying. This I find even harder to believe!”

Nagasena asked the king: “Great King, beneath the waters there are sea serpents, dragons, turtles, crabs, and other creatures. When the females are pregnant, they commonly swallow sand and gravel. Has Your Majesty ever heard of this?”

The king replied: “I have heard that these creatures take such things as food.”

Nagasena asked: “Then are the sand and gravel digested after entering their bellies?”

The king replied: “Naturally, they are all completely digested.”

Nagasena asked: “But is the embryo in their womb digested?”

The king replied: “No, it cannot be digested.”

Nagasena asked: “Why is it not digested?”

The king replied: “Because it is akin to them and of their own kind, it naturally cannot be digested.”

Nagasena said: “It is the same with a person who falls into hell. Even after tens of millions of years, that person is neither consumed nor dies. Because the consequences of the sinful deeds that person committed have not yet been fully exhausted, that person cannot be consumed and cannot die.

“Great King, when female lions, tigers, dogs, and cats are pregnant, they eat the flesh and bones of their prey. Are those bones and flesh digested after entering their bellies?”

The king replied: “They are all completely digested.”

Nagasena asked: “But is the embryo in their womb digested?”

The king replied: “No, it cannot be digested.”

Nagasena asked: “Why is it not digested?”

The king replied: “Because it is akin to them and of their own kind, it naturally cannot be digested.”

Nagasena said: “It is the same with a person who falls into hell. Even after tens of millions of years, that person is neither consumed nor dies. Because the evil deeds that person committed have not yet been fully expiated, that person cannot be consumed and cannot die.

“Great King, when female oxen, horses, donkeys, and deer are pregnant, they eat various kinds of dry grass. Is that dry grass digested after entering their bellies?”

The king replied: “It is all completely digested.”

Nagasena asked: “But is the embryo in their womb digested?”

The king replied: “No, it cannot be digested.”

Nagasena asked: “Why is it not digested?”

The king replied, “Because it is similar and of the same kind as they are, naturally it cannot be digested away.”

Nagasena said, “Those who fall into hell are likewise. Because the evil karma they have committed has not yet been fully exhausted, they cannot pass away or die.

“Great King, it is like wealthy women in society, who, whenever they become pregnant, usually eat as many delicious foods as they please. Are those delicious foods digested after entering their stomachs?”

The king replied, “They are all completely digested.”

Nagasena asked, “Then is the fetus in their womb also digested away?”

The king replied, “No, it cannot be digested.”

Nagasena asked, “Why can it not be digested?”

The king replied, “Because it is similar and of the same kind, naturally it cannot be digested away.”

Nagasena said, “Those who fall into hell are likewise. The reason they endure for a thousand years without passing away or dying is that the evil deeds committed in their previous lives have not yet been fully exhausted; therefore, they cannot pass away or die.

“They are born in hell, grow up in hell, and remain there until, upon growing old, their evil karma is exhausted; then they die.”

The king praised him, saying, “Excellent! Excellent!”

4. NIRVANA

The king asked, “Venerable sir, after one enters nirvana, is it true that nothing from the past will ever arise again?”

Nagasena replied, “That is so! After entering nirvana, no dharmas arise again.

“Foolish people crave attachments both to what is within the body and to what is outside it; therefore, they can never escape aging, illness, and death.

“A wise person who trains in the path clings neither to what is within the body nor to what is outside it. Such a person has no affectionate attachment. Because there is no affectionate attachment, there is no craving. Without craving, one is not conceived in a womb. Because one is not conceived in a womb, there are no birth, aging, illness, and death. Thus, there is no sorrow or suffering. When the mind is free from suffering and affliction, one attains entry into nirvana.”

The king praised him, saying, “Excellent!”

5. WHO ENTERS NIRVANA?

The king asked again, “Will all those who train in the path be able to enter nirvana?”

Nagasena replied, “No. Not all will attain entry into nirvana. Only those who rightly follow the wholesome path, learn what is right, do what ought to be done, avoid what ought not to be done, keep in mind what ought to be remembered, and completely abandon from their minds what ought not to be entertained can attain entry into nirvana.”

The king praised him, saying, “Excellent!”

6. HOW CAN ONE KNOW THAT NIRVANA IS BLISS?

The king asked again, “Can a person who has not yet entered nirvana know that nirvana is blissful?”

Nagasena replied, “Certainly. Although one has not yet attained entry into nirvana, one can know that nirvana is blissful.”

The king asked, “If one has not entered nirvana, how can one know that nirvana is blissful?”

Nagasena asked the king, “Can people who have never had their hands or feet cut off know that having one’s hands or feet cut off is very painful?”

The king replied, “Although they have never had their hands or feet cut off, they can know that having one’s hands or feet cut off is very painful.”

Nagasena asked, “How do they know?”

The king replied, “Because they have seen those whose hands or feet were cut off cry out and weep in pain; thus they know.”

Nagasena said, “It is likewise. Those who have attained entry into nirvana have transmitted the knowledge that entering nirvana is blissful. Therefore, by trusting their testimony, one knows.”

The king said, “Excellent!”

7. HOW CAN ONE KNOW THAT THE BUDDHA EXISTED?

The king asked, “Venerable sir, have you ever seen the Buddha?”

Nagasena replied, “I have never seen him.”

The king asked again, “Venerable sir, did the teachers who preceded you ever see the Buddha?”

Nagasena replied, “They too never saw the Buddha.”

The king said, “Since neither you nor the teachers before you ever saw the Buddha, I therefore think that the Buddha certainly never existed.”

Nagasena asked the king, “Great King, have you ever seen the place where five hundred rivers converge?”

The king replied, “I have never seen it.”

Nagasena asked again, “Then did your royal father, or even your grandfather, ever see it?”

The king replied, “None of them ever saw it.”

Nagasena said, “Since neither you, Great King, nor your royal father and grandfather ever saw the place where those five hundred rivers converge, does that mean there is certainly no place in the world where five hundred rivers converge?”

The king said, “It does not. Although my royal father, my grandfather, and I have never seen it, those rivers truly exist.”

Nagasena said, “It is likewise. Although I, this humble monk, and the venerable teachers have never seen the Buddha, the Buddha truly existed, and his teaching has been transmitted in this world.”

The king said, “Excellent! Excellent!”