那先比丘經

UPPER FASCICLE — I. THE ORIGINATING CIRCUMSTANCES

At one time, the Buddha was dwelling in the city of Shravasti, in Anathapindika’s Grove of Jeta Trees. At that time, monks and nuns, male and female lay devotees, heavenly beings, kings, ministers, elders, and ordinary people all came to hear the Buddha expound the sutra, numbering more than ten thousand.

The Buddha thought to himself, “Today this great assembly has gathered in vast numbers and is very noisy.” He felt no ease in body and wished to leave the assembly for a secluded place where he might sit and contemplate the Way.

The Buddha therefore left the assembly and went to a high mountain, where he sat beneath a great tree and contemplated the pure Way.

Not far from that tree was a herd of more than five hundred elephants. Among them was a king elephant named Virtuous and Good, who was exceptionally intelligent and knew how to distinguish good from evil. Just as among human beings, that great herd of elephants surrounded the king elephant and included old elephants, large elephants, young elephants, and elephants of every kind.

When the king elephant became thirsty and wished to find water to drink, the young elephants ran ahead, entered the water, drank, and frolicked until they stirred up the mud. Thus, the king elephant had no clear water to drink.

When the king elephant became hungry and wished to go eat grass, the young elephants again ran ahead, ate all the tender grass, and then frolicked and trampled it. The king elephant therefore had no clean grass left to eat.

The king elephant then thought to himself, “My great affliction is precisely this enormous herd of elephants. They muddy the water and trample the grass, leaving me no clear water to drink and no clean grass to eat. If I were to leave this herd and go alone to a quiet and secluded place, would that not be most delightful?”

Having thought this, he left the herd and entered the mountains. When he came to the tall tree, he saw the Buddha seated there in meditation. The king elephant was overjoyed. He approached the Buddha, bowed low in homage, and then stood respectfully to one side.

The Buddha then thought to himself, “I left the great assembly and came here. This king elephant likewise left the herd and came here. The meaning of our actions is truly the same.” The Buddha then expounded the sutra for the king elephant. The Buddha was the most honored among human beings, and the king elephant was the most honored among elephants.

The Buddha said, “My mind and the mind of this king elephant are now truly in harmony, both rejoicing here beneath this tree in this quiet and secluded place.” After hearing the Buddha expound the sutra, the king elephant’s mind awakened, and he clearly understood the Buddha’s meaning. With his trunk he drew water and sprinkled the ground around the Buddha. He also used his trunk to pull out the weeds and his feet to tread the earth level.

Morning and evening, the king elephant devoted himself to serving the Buddha. Not long afterward, the Buddha entered nirvana. The king elephant did not know where the Buddha was. He wandered everywhere searching but could not find him. Grieving and lamenting, he was joyless at heart and refused all food and drink.

° ° °

In that region, there was a mountain monastery named Kalahuan, where five hundred shramanas practiced together, all of whom had attained the fruit of arhatship. On six days of every month, the masters recited the sutras from the beginning of the night until dawn.

The king elephant also lived on the mountain near that monastery. He knew that the monastery customarily recited the sutras on six days of every month, so he always came to listen. The shramanas likewise knew that the king elephant wished to hear the sutras. Whenever they were about to begin reciting, they would intentionally wait until the elephant had arrived before commencing.

The king elephant listened to the sutras until dawn without sleeping, lying down, or ever becoming distracted. After hearing the sutras in this way for many days, his life came to an end.

Having relinquished the body of an elephant, he was born as a human being into a brahmin family. Yet he did not hear the Buddha’s sutras, nor did he encounter any shramanas. When he grew up, he again left home, ascended a high mountain, and trained in the brahminical path.

Nearby, another brahmin teacher also came to practice. The two often visited one another, conversed about the Way, and learned from each other.

At that time, one of them made this vow: “I have grown weary of worldly rank and office, of sorrow and suffering, aging, sickness, and death, and of afterward falling into hell, being reborn as an animal or hungry ghost, and enduring poverty and destitution. I therefore vow to shave my head, don the kashaya robe, become a shramana, and train in the unconditioned Way so that I may save humanity and deliver beings.”

The other made this vow: “I vow to become a mighty and powerful king, so that all the people beneath heaven will follow my instruction and guidance.”

After making these vows, both later died and were reborn as human beings in accordance with their vows.

II. BIRTH

The one who had vowed to cultivate the Way and deliver the world was born in the land of Kashmir in India. At birth, his body was already clothed in a kashaya robe. He was born wearing a kashaya because his former vow to train in the Way had come to fruition. On the day this child was born, an elephant was also born in the household. In the language of India, an elephant is called “Na”; therefore, his parents named the boy Nagasena.

When Nagasena was about fifteen or sixteen years old, he had a maternal uncle named Rohan, a shramana of extraordinary ability and virtue. He possessed the divine eye, with which he could see everywhere; the divine ear, with which he could hear throughout all places; and spiritual powers of transformation. He could also know the thoughts in the minds of all people. Nagasena went to visit his uncle and said, “I wish to train in the Buddha’s Way, leave the household life, don the kashaya robe, and become a shramana. I now wish to become your disciple. Would you admit me into the monastic life and enable me to become a shramana?”

Rohan clearly knew Nagasena’s circumstances in his former life and therefore held him in great esteem. He immediately agreed to admit him into the monastic life and conferred upon him the precepts of a novice. On the very day that Nagasena left the household life and received the ten novice precepts, he recited and studied the scriptures, contemplated and thoroughly understood their meaning, and immediately attained the four dhyanas. He naturally came to understand all the sutras, although he had not yet received the full ordination of a shramana.

At that time, there was a monastery in that land named Hechan, where five hundred monks practiced, all of whom had attained the fruit of arhatship. Foremost among them was one named Assagutta, who could clearly know the past, present, and future throughout the world.

When Nagasena reached the age of twenty, he received full ordination and became a shramana. He then went to visit Assagutta at Hechan Monastery.

III. ATTAINING THE WAY

It was then the fifteenth day of the month, and all five hundred arhats there had assembled for the recitation of the precepts. All of them entered the great Dharma hall, and Nagasena entered with them. When the entire assembly had settled into their seats, Assagutta examined the thoughts of everyone present and knew that each had attained the fruit of arhatship, with the sole exception of Nagasena.

Assagutta then expounded an analogy from the sutras, saying, “When rice is sifted to obtain white grains, any black grain is necessarily unfit and must be removed. In this assembly, everyone is white; Nagasena alone is black, for he has not yet attained the fruit of arhatship.”

When Nagasena heard Assagutta expound this analogy from the sutras, he was deeply saddened. He immediately rose, paid homage to the five hundred shramanas, and left the Dharma hall.

After stepping outside, Nagasena thought to himself, “I should not have entered and taken a seat in that Dharma assembly. I alone have not attained the path of liberation, while everyone else has attained liberation. It is as though a jackal had intruded into a pride of lions. For me to dwell among these arhats is no different. From this day forward, until I attain the path of liberation, I shall never again return to sit among the assembly.”

At-pha-viet clearly discerned this thought, immediately summoned Na-tien before him, stroked Na-tien’s head with his hand, and said: “The day when you attain the path will not be long in coming. You should not grieve.”

Thereupon, At-pha-viet kept Na-tien there with him.

Na-tien also had another teacher, more than eighty years old, named Ca-duy-viet. In that region there was a great lay patron who regularly offered food to the disciples of the Venerable Ca-duy-viet. Na-tien went in his teacher’s stead, carrying the alms bowl to seek food, and the Venerable instructed him to hold water in his mouth while going to the home of that great lay patron to seek alms.

The layman saw that, although Na-tien was young, his appearance and bearing were upright and extraordinary, and knew him to be a person of wisdom. He had also heard of Na-tien’s reputation as an intelligent man capable of expounding the scriptures and the path.

After Na-tien entered the house, the layman immediately rose, approached, bowed before him, joined his palms respectfully, and said: “I have long made offerings to the śramanas, yet none has ever expounded the meaning of the scriptures for me. I pray that today you will teach me and dispel my foolishness and delusion.”

Na-tien thought to himself: “Obeying my teacher’s command, I am holding water in my mouth and must not speak. If I now open my mouth, I shall be disobeying my teacher. What should I do?”

He then thought: “This layman possesses ability and aspiration. If he hears me expound the scripture, he will certainly attain the path.” Having thought thus, he spat out the water in his mouth and taught the Dharma, saying:

“Those in the world who know how to give, perform good deeds, and observe the precepts obtain peace and security in the present and are reborn in the heavenly realm in the next life. If they are born in the human realm, they will also possess wealth, honor, and wisdom, and afterward will not fall into the three evil destinies of hell beings, hungry ghosts, and animals. Those who do not study the scriptures and do not observe the precepts suffer in the present and, in the next life, fall into the three evil destinies, with no time of release.”

Upon hearing this teaching, the layman’s heart was filled with joy. Knowing that the layman’s heart was filled with joy, Na-tien continued to expound the profound and wondrous meaning of the scriptures, saying: “All the myriad things in this world must eventually pass away; nothing abides forever. Therefore, all is suffering, and the human body is likewise. People in the world all say: ‘This is my body...’ Because they think in this way, they cannot attain freedom and realize the path of nirvana. The truly supreme state of bliss is nirvana, where there is no birth, no aging, no illness, no death, no sorrow, and no grief, and where all evil is extinguished...”

When Na-tien had finished teaching the Dharma, that layman immediately attained the fruit of stream-entry. Na-tien himself also attained the fruit of stream-entry.

The layman was overjoyed and immediately brought forth fine food as an offering to Na-tien. Na-tien said: “First place an offering in my teacher’s bowl.”

After Na-tien had eaten, he brought food back to his teacher. Looking at the food in the bowl, his teacher said: “Today, while going for alms, you came to a place where fine food was served and violated the rules of the Sangha. You must be expelled from the community.”

Hearing this, Na-tien was sorrowful and unhappy. His teacher, Ca-duy-viet, summoned the Sangha to assemble and said: “Na-tien has violated the rules of the Sangha. We should expel him and cannot permit him to remain in the community.”

At that time, the Venerable At-pha-viet offered this analogy: “Suppose a man shoots a single arrow and strikes two targets. Such a person should not be expelled. By teaching the Dharma, Na-tien himself attained the fruit and also enabled that layman to attain the fruit. He should not be expelled.”

Ca-duy-viet said: “It is precisely because he struck two targets with one arrow yet also violated the rules of the Sangha that he cannot be retained. Others certainly cannot attain the fruit as Na-tien did; therefore, we must prevent such conduct in the future, lest others imitate him.”

At that time, the entire assembly sat silently, and no one said anything. Thus, they agreed with the words of the teacher At-pha-viet and expelled Na-tien.

Na-tien then bowed to his teacher and afterward bowed to the entire Sangha. When he had finished bowing, he departed and entered deep into the forest. Sitting beneath a tree, he contemplated the Dharma of the path day and night. Before long, he realized the fruit of arhatship. He could fly through the air, see clearly in every direction, hear throughout all places, know the thoughts of others, and know events of the past and future.

Having attained the fruit of arhatship, Na-tien returned to Hoa Thien Monastery and asked to make a confession of repentance before the entire community of bhikshus. After the Sangha accepted his repentance, Na-tien bowed, took his leave, and departed.

IV. LIBERATING SENTIENT BEINGS

From that time onward, Na-tien traveled far and wide, teaching the scriptures and the Dharma to people and instructing them to perform good deeds. Among those whom he taught, some resolved to undertake and observe the Five Precepts; some attained the fruit of stream-entry; some attained the fruit of once-returning; some attained the fruit of non-returning; and some went forth as śramanas and attained the fruit of arhatship. Even the heavenly kings and Shakra, lord of the heavens, frequently descended to hear him teach the Dharma. His renown resounded everywhere. Wherever he went, all who met him were filled with joy and gained abundant merit. Even dragons, ghosts, and spirits benefited from the power of his deliverance.

Later, he went to the land of Xa-kiet in India and stayed at Tiet-tri-ca Monastery. There, he encountered an old acquaintance from a previous life, who had now been born in a coastal region as a crown prince, the king’s son, named Di-lan-da.

° ° °

From an early age, Di-lan-da delighted in reading scriptures and books. He studied various different paths and could distinguish and understand them all clearly. He often questioned teachers of other paths, and none could surpass him in debate.

When his royal father passed away, Di-lan-da succeeded to the throne and ruled the kingdom according to the true Dharma. The king was a man of great ability and wisdom who thoroughly understood worldly affairs. He could discuss the past, present, and future with complete comprehension. He was also skilled in warfare, possessed many strategies, and there was nothing he did not clearly understand.

One day, the king went outside the city for an excursion, accompanied by all his ministers, officers, and soldiers. At that time, pride arose in the king’s heart, and he thought to himself: “Now that I am king, I can thoroughly understand all the scriptures of the various paths. There is no one left who can surpass me in debate.”

Having thought thus, the king said to his ministers: “It is still very early, and there is nothing to do if we return to the city. See whether there is any practitioner nearby who can debate with me concerning the principles of the scriptures and the path.”

A close minister named Chiem-di-ly Vong-quan reported: “Your Majesty, nearby there is a śramana named Gia-hoa-la who is thoroughly versed in the meaning of the scriptures and can debate with Your Majesty.”

The king immediately sent Chiem-di-ly to invite the elder Gia-hoa-la to come. Chiem-di-ly went to the elder and said: “The great king wishes to see you.” Gia-hoa-la replied: “If the great king wishes to see me, he should come here himself. I will not go to him.”

Chiem-di-ly returned and reported this to the king. The king immediately mounted his chariot and, together with five hundred mounted soldiers, went straight to the monastery of the elder Gia-hoa-la. After they had met and exchanged greetings, the king asked: “Why did you abandon your home, wife, and children to go forth as a śramana? What principle of the path do you seek to attain?”

Gia-hoa-la replied: “I follow the Buddha’s path and practice righteousness. In this life I gain merit, and in the next life I shall also gain abundant merit. For this reason, I shaved my head, went forth, and became a śramana.”

The king further asked, “If a lay householder has a wife and children and conducts himself rightly, will he receive blessings in this life? Will he receive blessings in the next life?”

Giả-hòa-la replied, “Even if one is a lay householder with a wife and children, if one knows how to conduct oneself rightly, one will receive blessings in this life and blessings in the next life as well.”

The king immediately asked, “If a layperson with a wife and children who conducts himself rightly receives blessings both in this life and in the next, why then did you need to shave your head and leave the household life to become a śramaṇa?”

Giả-hòa-la remained silent and gave no reply.

The ministers surrounding the king then said, “Even this śramaṇa, though intelligent and wise, is unable to answer the great king adequately.” They all raised their fists high and cried aloud, “The great king has won! The great king has won!”

The elder Giả-hòa-la remained silent and conceded defeat.

The king looked at the laypeople around him and saw that their expressions remained composed, without any sign of shame. He then thought, “These laypeople show no shame at seeing this śramaṇa defeated. Thus, there must surely be another śramaṇa of even greater intelligence and wisdom who can debate the meaning of the teachings with me.”

The king then turned and asked his close minister Triêm-di-lỵ, “Is there another śramaṇa of greater intelligence and wisdom who can debate with me?”

Triêm-di-lỵ replied, “Your Majesty! There is a śramaṇa named Na-tiên, whose wisdom is profound and extensive. He thoroughly understands the essential meanings of the scriptures and can debate with Your Majesty.”

The king asked again, “Can he truly debate with me?”

Triêm-di-lỵ replied, “Certainly. He can debate even with the devas of the heavenly realms, let alone with anyone in the human realm.”

The king immediately sent Triêm-di-lỵ to invite Na-tiên to come. Triêm-di-lỵ went to find him and said, “The great king wishes to meet you.” Na-tiên then set out with his disciples and went directly to the king.

V. THE ENCOUNTER

Although the king had never met Na-tiên before, Na-tiên’s bearing was extraordinary, and he stood out among the great assembly. Seeing him from afar, the king was able to discern inwardly who Na-tiên was.

The king further thought to himself, “Throughout my life I have met many kinds of people and attended many discourses, yet I have never felt such fear and anxiety as I do now, when I am about to face Na-tiên. Today Na-tiên will surely defeat me; that must be why my heart is so restless and uneasy.”

At that moment, Triêm-di-lỵ came forward and reported, “Na-tiên has arrived.”

When Na-tiên had arrived, the king asked, “Which one is Na-tiên?”

Triêm-di-lỵ then introduced him to the king. The king joyfully said, “It is indeed just as I had discerned beforehand.”

After the two had met and exchanged greetings, the delighted king invited Na-tiên to sit with him. Na-tiên said to the king, “The Buddha’s scriptures teach: The greatest gain for a person is peace and security. The greatest wealth is contentment. The greatest joy is the attainment of nirvana.”

° ° °

The king asked Na-tiên, “Venerable sir, what is your name?”

Na-tiên replied, “My parents named this poor monk Na-tiên, and for that reason everyone calls me Na-tiên. But even if my parents had named me Duy-tiên, Thủ-la-tiên, or Duy-ca-tiên... it would be merely a convention used for recognition and distinction. The names of all people in the world have only this same significance.”

The king then asked, “If the venerable sir says so, then what does the name Na-tiên actually designate? Is the head Na-tiên?”

Na-tiên replied, “No, the head is not Na-tiên.”

The king asked again, “Are the eyes, ears, nose, and tongue Na-tiên?”

Na-tiên replied, “The eyes, ears, nose, and tongue are not Na-tiên.”

The king asked again, “Then are the neck, nape, shoulders, arms, hands, and feet Na-tiên?”

Na-tiên replied, “They are not Na-tiên.”

The king asked again, “Then are the thighs, the feet, and so forth Na-tiên?”

Na-tiên replied, “They are not Na-tiên.”

The king asked, “Then is the visible form Na-tiên?”

Na-tiên replied, “It is not Na-tiên.”

The king asked, “Then are the pleasant and painful feelings Na-tiên?”

Na-tiên replied, “They are not Na-tiên.”

The king asked again, “Then is the discernment of good and evil Na-tiên?”

Na-tiên replied, “It is not Na-tiên.”

The king asked again, “Then is the physical body Na-tiên?”

Na-tiên replied, “It is not Na-tiên.”

The king asked, “Then are all the internal organs Na-tiên?”

Na-tiên replied, “They are not Na-tiên.”

The king asked again, “Then are all five things together—form, the feeling of pain and pleasure, good and evil, body, and mind—Na-tiên?”

Na-tiên replied, “They are not Na-tiên.”

The king asked, “Supposing those five things were absent, could that be Na-tiên?”

Na-tiên replied, “That is not Na-tiên.”

The king asked again, “Then are sound, echo, and even the in-breath and out-breath Na-tiên?”

Na-tiên replied, “They are not Na-tiên.”

The king then asked, “If so, where, in truth, is Na-tiên?”

Na-tiên did not answer but instead asked the king, “Your Majesty uses the name ‘chariot,’ but where, in truth, is the chariot? Is the axle the chariot?”

The king replied, “The axle is not the chariot.”

Na-tiên asked, “Then is the rim the chariot?”

The king replied, “The rim is not the chariot either.”

Na-tiên asked again, “Then are the spokes the chariot?”

The king replied, “The spokes are not the chariot.”

Na-tiên asked, “Then are the wheels the chariot?”

The king replied, “The wheels are not the chariot either.”

Na-tiên asked, “Then are the shafts the chariot?”

The king replied, “The shafts are not the chariot.”

Na-tiên asked, “Then is the yoke the chariot?”

The king replied, “The yoke is not the chariot.”

Na-tiên asked again, “Is the seat the chariot?”

The king replied, “The seat is not the chariot.”

Na-tiên continued, “Is the footrest the chariot?”

The king replied, “The footrest is not the chariot.”

Na-tiên asked, “Then is the canopy the chariot?”

The king replied, “The canopy is not the chariot.”

Na-tiên asked again, “Then are all these parts assembled together the chariot?”

The king replied, “Even when all these parts are assembled together, they are not the chariot.”

Na-tiên asked, “Supposing all these parts were not assembled together, would that be the chariot?”

The king replied, “If those parts are not assembled together, that is not the chariot either.”

Na-tiên asked, “Then is the sound that is produced the chariot?”

The king replied, “The sound is not the chariot either.”

Na-tiên then asked, “If that is so, where, in truth, is the chariot?”

The king remained silent, unable to answer.

Only then did the venerable Na-tiên calmly say, “The Buddha’s scriptures teach that when all these constituent factors are assembled to make a chariot, there comes to be a thing that people call a chariot. A human being is the same. When all the constituent factors—the head, face, ears, nose, tongue, neck, nape, shoulders, hands and feet, bones, flesh, internal organs, complexion, sound, echo, in-breath and out-breath, feelings of pain and pleasure, discernment of good and evil, and so forth—are brought together in harmony, there arises an entity called a human being.”

The king understood and exclaimed in praise, “Excellent! Excellent!”

° ° °

The king asked again, “Venerable sir, can you debate with me concerning the meanings found in the scriptures?”

The venerable Na-tiên replied, “If Your Majesty questions and answers with this poor monk in the manner of the wise, then it can be done. But if you speak in the manner of an arrogant monarch, it cannot be done.”

The king asked, “What is the manner in which the wise converse?”

Na-tien replied, “When the wise converse, they question one another thoroughly and explain matters to one another so that together they may understand the issue. When debating, they are willing to acknowledge superiority and inferiority, victory and defeat, right and wrong, and they themselves recognize the soundest and most discerning reasoning. The wise never become angry or irritable in debate. Such is the manner in which the wise converse.”

The king asked again, “Then what is the manner in which arrogant rulers converse?”

Na-tien replied, “When arrogant rulers converse, they act entirely according to their own will, without regard for any rule. If others do not agree with them, they use force to suppress and punish them. Such is the manner in which arrogant rulers converse.”

The king then said, “In that case, I choose the manner of conversation of the wise, not that of arrogant rulers. Venerable sir, you also should not think that you are speaking with a powerful king. Regard it as though you were speaking with śramaṇas, with disciples, or with lay followers studying the Path, or as though you were instructing śramaṇas. Please do not be afraid, but with an upright mind instruct me.”

The Venerable Na-tien praised him, saying, “How excellent indeed!”

° ° °

The king then said, “Venerable sir, there is something I wish to ask.”

Na-tien replied, “Your Majesty, please ask.”

The king said, “I have already asked.”

Na-tien replied, “This humble monk has already answered.”

The king asked, “What did you answer?”

Na-tien asked, “What did Your Majesty ask this humble monk?”

The king said, “I have nothing to ask.”

Na-tien said, “This humble monk also has nothing to answer.”

° ° °

At that time, the king thought to himself, “This śramaṇa is truly one of great wisdom and surpassing discernment. I still have many things I wish to ask him. Perhaps tomorrow I shall invite him into the palace, so that we may have ample time for questions and answers.”

The king conveyed this thought to his close attendant Chiem-di-ly. The attendant then said to the Venerable Na-tien, “It is nearly dark today, and His Majesty must return to the palace. Tomorrow, His Majesty wishes to invite you into the palace so that you may engage in questions and answers together.”

Na-tien accepted, saying, “That would be very good.”

The king mounted his carriage and returned to the palace. Along the way, he constantly thought of Na-tien, softly murmuring his name: “Na-tien, Na-tien...” He continued thinking of him in this way until the following morning.

VI. THE INVITATION TO QUESTIONING

The following morning, Chiem-di-ly and the ministers together asked the king, “Should we go and invite the Venerable Na-tien?”

The king replied, “Go at once.”

Chiem-di-ly asked again, “When we invite the venerable one, how many śramaṇas should be permitted to accompany him?”

The king said, “Let the venerable one decide that as he wishes.”

At that time, an official named Xan, the keeper of the royal treasury, was standing nearby. He said to the king, “Please allow ten śramaṇas to accompany him.”

The king said, “Let the Venerable Na-tien decide that as he wishes.”

Xan said again, “May ten śramaṇas be allowed to accompany him?”

The king said, “Let the venerable one decide as he wishes. He may bring as many śramaṇas as he desires.”

Xan said again, “Perhaps he should be allowed to bring only ten śramaṇas.”

Hearing Xan persistently prattle on about the matter, the king became angry and rebuked him, saying, “Your stinginess is truly beyond words. No wonder your name is Xan; it suits you perfectly! You begrudge the king’s possessions as though they were your own. Do you not know that defying my wishes may be punishable by death? Now go. I shall pardon your offense for the time being. How could I, having attained the rank of king, lack the means to offer a meal to the śramaṇas?”

Ashamed upon hearing the king’s words, Xan withdrew and dared say nothing more.

Chiem-di-ly went to Na-tien and said, “Venerable sir, His Majesty invites you into the palace.”

Na-tien asked, “How many śramaṇas does the king permit me to bring?”

Chiem-di-ly replied, “It is entirely as you wish. You may bring as many as you please.”

Na-tien then entered the palace together with Gia-hoa-la’s group and eighty other śramaṇas.

Chiem-di-ly accompanied them. Along the way, he asked the Venerable Na-tien, “Venerable sir, after yesterday’s conversation with the king, in the end I still do not know what is to be regarded as Na-tien.”

The Venerable Na-tien turned and asked him, “Then in your opinion, what is to be regarded as Na-tien?”

Chiem-di-ly replied, “In my opinion, the breath that enters and leaves is Na-tien.”

Na-tien asked, “If a person’s breath goes out and does not enter again, does that person remain alive?”

Chiem-di-ly replied, “If the breath goes out but does not enter again, that person will certainly die.”

Na-tien asked, “When people blow horns, play flutes, or blow upon a fire, does the breath they expel enter again?”

Chiem-di-ly replied, “No, venerable sir.”

Na-tien asked, “Then why do those people who blow horns, play flutes, or blow upon a fire not die when the breath they expel does not enter again?”

Unable to answer, Chiem-di-ly said, “This matter of the breath entering and leaving is truly beyond my understanding. Venerable sir, please explain it to me.”

Na-tien said, “The breath entering and leaving is merely one among the many activities of the body. Whatever thoughts arise in the mind are expressed as words by means of the tongue. That is the activity of the tongue. When a doubt arises in one’s thoughts, the mind then examines and reflects upon it. That is the activity of the mind. Each of these functions operates in harmony according to a person’s intention, but when separated, all of them are empty; none of them is Na-tien.”

Chiem-di-ly suddenly understood. He then resolved to receive the Five Precepts and vowed to become a lay practitioner cultivating at home.

° ° °

After Na-tien entered the royal palace, he went directly to the king. The king immediately paid homage and invited him and the eighty śramaṇas to be seated.

The king ordered fine and precious foods to be prepared as offerings to them all. He also personally attended upon Na-tien with great care.

When all the śramaṇas had finished their meal, the king offered each of them a set of kāṣāya robes and a pair of sandals. Na-tien and Gia-hoa-la each separately received three sets of kāṣāya robes and a pair of sandals.

After making these offerings, the king said to the Venerable Na-tien, “Please have ten remain here and allow the others to return.”

Na-tien then retained ten śramaṇas and allowed the rest to return to the monastery.

The king also summoned everyone in the inner palace so that they might hear the exchange of questions and answers between the king and the Venerable Na-tien.

VII. QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

The king had a seat prepared facing Na-tien. He then asked the Venerable Na-tien, “Venerable sir, what matters should we discuss first?”

Na-tien replied, “Your Majesty wishes to hear the essential matters, so we should discuss the essential matters.”

1. THE PURPOSE OF GOING FORTH

The king asked, “In your view, what matter is most essential? What do you seek that causes you to go forth and become śramaṇas?”

Na-tien replied, “We go forth and become śramaṇas because we wish to eliminate all suffering and affliction in this life, and we also do not wish to endure suffering and affliction in future lives. For these purposes, we go forth and become śramaṇas. We regard this as the most essential and excellent matter.”

The king asked again, “Is it true that all śramaṇas go forth and become śramaṇas because they wish to extinguish suffering and affliction in this life and future lives?”

Na-tien replied, “No. In truth, those who go forth and become śramaṇas are of four different kinds.”

The king asked, “What are these four different kinds?”

Nagasena said: “Among those who leave the household life to become sramanas, some do so because they are burdened by debt and wish to evade it; some do so because they have violated the laws of the realm and, out of fear, seek refuge in the monastic life; and some do so because they are exceedingly poor and wish to obtain food and clothing. These three kinds of people do not leave the household life because they wish to extinguish suffering and affliction. The fourth kind consists of those who truly leave the household life. It is because they wish to eliminate all suffering and affliction in this life and in lives to come that they leave the household life and become sramanas.”

The king asked: “Venerable sir, did you become a sramana in order to seek the Way?”

Nagasena replied: “This humble monk left the household life when still young. Through the Buddha’s scriptures and the instruction of highly accomplished sramanas, I studied the scriptures, received the precepts, and penetrated their meaning deeply within my heart. Therefore, I formed the firm resolve to put an end to suffering and affliction in this life and in lives to come.”

The king praised him, saying: “Excellent! Excellent!”

2. REBIRTH

The king again asked: “Venerable sir, are there any who, after death, are not reborn?”

The Venerable Nagasena replied: “Some must be reborn, while others need not be reborn.”

The king asked: “Who must be reborn, and who need not be reborn?”

Nagasena replied: “Those who have not yet severed craving for affection and attachment must be reborn. Those who have severed craving for affection and attachment need not be reborn again.”

The king asked: “Will one who wholeheartedly keeps the true and wholesome Dharma in mind still be born in a future life?”

Nagasena replied: “One who wholeheartedly keeps the true Dharma, wholesome wisdom, and other wholesome qualities in mind may thereby no longer have to be born in a future life.”

The king asked again: “Are wholeheartedly keeping the true and wholesome Dharma in mind and possessing wisdom identical in meaning?”

Nagasena replied: “No. These two have different meanings.”

The king asked: “Do oxen, horses, livestock, and other animals possess understanding?”

Nagasena replied: “Oxen, horses, livestock, and other animals each possess their own understanding, but their minds are not alike.”

Nagasena continued: “Great King, have you ever seen a person harvesting rice? With the left hand he grasps a bundle of stalks, and with the right hand he cuts them. Great King, a person of wisdom severs sensual craving just as a harvester cuts rice.”

The king praised him, saying: “Excellent! Excellent!”

3. WHOLESOME QUALITIES

The king asked: “Venerable sir, what are the other wholesome qualities?”

Nagasena replied: “Sincere faith, filial devotion, diligence, recollection of the wholesome, one-pointedness of mind, and wisdom. These are called wholesome qualities.”

The king asked: “What is sincere faith?”

Nagasena replied: “Sincere faith means being free from all doubt. It is faith that there is a Buddha, that there are the Buddha’s scriptures, that there is the Sangha of bhiksus, and that there are those who have attained arhatship. It is faith that there is this life and that there are lives to come; faith in being filial and obedient toward one’s parents; and faith that wholesome deeds bring wholesome results while evil deeds bring evil results. When one’s faith is firmly established in this way, the mind immediately becomes pure—that is, it becomes free from the five evils.

“What are the five evils? The first is lustful craving; the second, anger and hatred; the third, sloth and sleepiness; the fourth, attachment to amusements; and the fifth, lingering doubt.

“The mind of one who has not become free from these five evils cannot become settled. When one becomes free from these five evils, the mind immediately becomes pure.

“Suppose a Cakravartin king led his people, horses, and carriages across a stream. After crossing, the thirsty king sought water to drink. The king possessed a precious jewel capable of clarifying turbid water. He placed that jewel in the water, and the turbid water immediately became clear. The king then had pure water to drink.

“A person’s mind burdened with evil is like turbid water. The aspiration of the Buddha’s disciples to transcend birth and death is like the precious jewel capable of clarifying water. When people have completely removed all evil, their sincere faith becomes pure and radiant, like a bright moon-jewel.”

The king praised him, saying: “Excellent! Excellent!”

The king asked again: “What, then, is a person who is diligent and possessed of sincere faith like?”

Nagasena replied: “The disciples who follow the Buddha’s teaching encourage themselves and serve as examples for one another. Among them, some eliminate all evil states of mind; some attain the fruit of stream-entry; some attain the fruit of once-returning; some attain the fruit of non-returning; some attain the fruit of arhatship; and still others train themselves to act with sincere faith. All such people are liberated from the worldly realm.

“Suppose a very heavy rain fell upon a high mountain, causing the waters at its foot to rise into a vast flood. The people on both banks would not know how deep or shallow the water was and, being afraid, would not dare to wade across.

“Then a traveler might arrive from afar, look upon the waters, discern their breadth and depth, assess his own strength, and wade across. The people on both banks would then follow his example and all succeed in crossing the waters.

“The Buddha’s disciples are likewise. They arouse sincere faith upon seeing that those who went before them purified their minds and attained the fruits of stream-entry, once-returning, non-returning, and arhatship, all through wholesome states of mind and the power of diligence.

“The Buddha’s scriptures teach: A person possessed of sincere faith can transcend the worldly realm. A practitioner must first restrain and ward off the five kinds of sensual craving and personally understand that this body is suffering; only then can that person deliver others. All attain virtue in the Way through wisdom.”

The king praised him, saying: “Excellent! Excellent!”

4. FILIAL DEVOTION

The king asked again: “Venerable sir, what is called filial devotion?”

Nagasena replied: “All wholesome qualities constitute filial devotion. All thirty-seven factors aiding the Way are rooted in filial devotion.”

The king asked: “What are the thirty-seven factors aiding the Way?”

Nagasena replied: “They are the Four Foundations for Settling the Mind, the Four Efforts to Abandon Mental States, the Four Bases of Spiritual Power, the Five Faculties, the Five Powers, the Seven Factors of Awakening, and the Noble Eightfold Path.”

“What are called the Four Foundations for Settling the Mind?”

“The Buddha taught: first, by contemplating the body, the body is brought to rest; second, by contemplating the suffering of illness, the suffering of illness is brought to rest; third, by contemplating the mind, the mind is brought to rest; and fourth, by contemplating dharmas, dharmas are brought to rest. These are called the Four Foundations for Settling the Mind.”

The king asked again: “What are the Four Efforts to Abandon Mental States?”

“When one has discerned the aforementioned Four Foundations for Settling the Mind and no longer gives rise to those thoughts again, these are called the Four Efforts to Abandon Mental States. Having attained the Four Efforts to Abandon Mental States, the Four Bases of Spiritual Power naturally arise within one’s mental awareness.”

“What are the Four Bases of Spiritual Power within mental awareness?”

“First, the eyes can see clearly everywhere; second, the ears can hear clearly everywhere; third, one can know the thoughts in the minds of others; and fourth, one can fly through the air. These are the Four Bases of Spiritual Power within mental awareness.”

The king asked: “What, then, are called the Five Faculties?”

Nagasena replied: “First, when the eyes see forms that are beautiful or ugly, the mind is attached to neither. Second, when the ears hear melodious sounds or insulting words, the mind is attached to neither. Third, when the nose smells fragrances that are pleasant or foul, the mind is attached to neither. Fourth, when the tongue tastes flavors that are sweet and delicious or pungent and bitter, the mind is attached to neither. Fifth, when the body experiences a pleasant touch, the mind does not delight in it; and when the body experiences a rough touch, the mind is not displeased by it. These are called the Five Faculties.”

The king asked again: “What, then, are called the Five Powers?”

Nagasena replied: “First, one restrains the eye; second, one restrains the ear; third, one restrains the nose; fourth, one restrains the tongue; fifth, one restrains the body. Because one has sufficient strength to restrain these five sense faculties, the mind does not fall into corruption. These are called the Five Powers.”

The king asked: “What are the Seven Factors of Awakening?”

Nagasena replied: “First is the factor of mindfulness; second, the factor of investigation of Dharma; third, the factor of energy; fourth, the factor of joy; fifth, the factor of tranquility; sixth, the factor of concentration; seventh, the factor of equanimity. These are the Seven Factors of Awakening.”

The king asked: “What are called the Eight Practices of the Path?”

He replied: “First is right view, second is right thought, third is right speech, fourth is right action, fifth is right livelihood, sixth is right effort, seventh is right mindfulness, and eighth is right concentration. These are called the Eight Practices of the Path.

“All these Thirty-seven Aids to Awakening take filial obedience as their foundation.

“When a person carries a heavy load and sets it down far away, it can remain firmly supported because of the earth. All the grains, plants, and trees in this world are born from the earth and grow upward toward the sky.

“Again, when a person wishes to build a great city, he must first survey the ground and lay the foundations; only afterward can construction begin.

“Again, when a person wishes to perform acrobatics, he must first clear the ground and make it clean and level; only afterward can he perform upon it.

“Disciples of the Buddha who wish to seek the Path must first practice according to the teachings of the scriptures, observe the precepts, and remain mindful of what is wholesome. Because they clearly understand hardship and suffering, they are then able to abandon all craving and desire and contemplate and remain mindful of the Noble Eightfold Path.”

The king asked again: “Upon what should one rely in order to abandon craving and desire?”

Nagasena replied: “When one single-mindedly remains mindful of the Path, craving and desire naturally cease.”

The king then praised him: “Excellent! Excellent!”

5. ENERGY

The king asked: “What is called energy?”

Nagasena replied: “Preserving the wholesome qualities already present and developing wholesome qualities not yet present—this is called energy.

“It is like the wall of a house that is about to collapse but is made firm again by a supporting pillar. Energy is likewise.

“It is also like a king who leads his army into battle. When his forces are not strong enough, the king dispatches additional troops to reinforce them, and through this they gain victory.

“People possess many evil qualities, just as that army was weak. One who maintains a wholesome mind and destroys evil states of mind is like the king who sends reinforcements and thereby gains victory.

“To preserve the five wholesome states of mind and eliminate the five evil states of mind is like gaining victory in battle. This is called the energy that develops wholesome qualities.”

At this point, Venerable Nagasena recited this verse:

Energy lends greater strength,

Helping one complete the wholesome path.

Escaping and transcending the worldly realm,

One need no longer turn within its rounds.

Having heard this, the king praised him, saying: “Excellent! Excellent!”

6. MINDFULNESS OF WHAT IS WHOLESOME

The king asked again: “What does it mean for the mind always to remain mindful of what is wholesome?”

Nagasena replied: “It is like a person who gathers many kinds of flowers and binds them tightly with a thread into a garland, so that the wind cannot scatter them.

“It is like the keeper of a king’s treasury, who can clearly distinguish how much gold, silver, pearls, and jewels the royal treasury contains, and which are fine and which are inferior. A practitioner who wishes to attain the Path keeps the mind constantly mindful of the Thirty-seven Aids to Awakening. This is mindfulness of the supramundane Path. One who remains mindful of the principles of the Path thereby comes to know what is wholesome and what is evil; knows what may be done and what may not be done; distinguishes what is good from what is bad; and, reflecting within, abandons evil and practices what is wholesome.

“It is like the keeper of the king’s gate, who knows whom the king respects and whom he does not respect, who benefits the king and who does not benefit him. Knowing those whom the king respects and those who can benefit the king, he allows them to enter. Knowing those whom the king does not respect and those who do not benefit the king, he does not allow them to enter.

“A practitioner controls his thoughts in the same way. He allows wholesome things to enter and bars evil things. Preserving wholesome thoughts and subduing the mind are likewise.”

At this point, Venerable Nagasena cited a teaching from the scriptures:

“One who trains in the Path must resolutely guard and protect his own thoughts and remain vigilant against the six forms of craving and desire within the body. Only by doing so can one escape the cycle of worldly existence.”

The king praised him, saying: “Excellent! Excellent!”

7. ONE-POINTEDNESS OF MIND

The king asked again: “What may be called one-pointedness of mind?”

Nagasena replied: “Among wholesome qualities, one-pointedness of mind alone is foremost. If a person can attain one-pointedness of mind, all other wholesome qualities arise in dependence upon it.

“It is like constructing a tower: if it is to stand firm, it must have a foundation to support it. All wholesome qualities must likewise be based upon one-pointedness of mind.

“It is like a king leading the four divisions of his army out of the city to battle: the elephant corps, cavalry, chariots, and infantry are all commanded by the king. All the Buddha’s scriptures and precepts, together with all other wholesome qualities, depend upon one-pointedness of mind, just as those divisions of the army depend upon the king.”

At this point, Venerable Nagasena cited a teaching from the scriptures:

“Among wholesome qualities, one-pointedness of mind is the root. All who train in the Path must first rely upon one-pointedness of mind. Otherwise, birth and death, from the past until the present, continue like water flowing downstream, one following another without ever ceasing.”

The king praised him, saying: “Excellent! Excellent!”

8. WISDOM

The king asked again: “What is wisdom?”

Nagasena replied: “This humble monk has spoken of it before. One who possesses wisdom can cut off all doubts and clearly understand wholesome things. This is wisdom.

“It is like carrying a bright lamp into a dark house: the moment one enters, the darkness immediately vanishes and one sees everything clearly. A discerning person endowed with wisdom is likewise like the light of a bright lamp.

“It is also like a person using a sharp sword to cut down a tree. One who possesses wisdom can cut off all evil, just as with that sharp sword.

“For people dwelling in the world, wisdom is the most precious of all. Whoever attains wisdom can escape and transcend the suffering of birth and death.”

The king praised him, saying: “Excellent! Excellent!”

9. THE FUNCTION OF WHOLESOME QUALITIES

The king asked again: “Venerable sir, until now you have taught the many different matters contained in the scriptures. Are they all taught solely for the purpose of completely eliminating evil?”

Nagasena replied: “Indeed! The various wholesome qualities taught in the Buddha’s scriptures are all intended to eliminate every evil completely.

“It is like a king who leads four different divisions of his army into battle. From the moment the troops are dispatched, each division has only the aim of attacking the enemy. Likewise, all the wholesome qualities taught in the Buddha’s scriptures have only the aim of attacking and completely eliminating every evil.”

The king praised him, saying: “Excellent! Excellent! Venerable Nagasena’s exposition of the Buddha’s scriptures is truly most satisfying to hear!”

10. WHO IS REBORN?

The king asked again: “Venerable sir! It is said that when people die, they are reborn according to the wholesome or evil deeds they have performed. Then is it this same living body and consciousness that undergoes rebirth, or is it another living body and consciousness?”

Nagasena replied: “It is not this same living body and consciousness, nor is it separate from this living body and consciousness.”

Then the Venerable Nagasena asked the king in return: “Great King, is the life and body of one who, in early childhood, suckled at his mother’s breast the same as, or different from, the life and body of that person when fully grown?”

The king replied: “The life and body of early childhood were different.”

Nagasena said: “When a person is still in the mother’s womb, is there a difference between the moment of conception and the formation of the embryo? Is there a difference between that and the stage when bones, skin, and flesh have fully formed? Is there a difference between the time of birth and the time of maturity?

“If one person is learning to write, can another person take his place and write for him?”

The king said: “That is not possible.”

Nagasena asked again: “If a person breaks the law and deserves to be brought to judgment, can an innocent person bear the punishment in his place?”

The king replied: “That is not possible.”

The Venerable Nagasena had used the foregoing examples as illustrations, but the king still did not fully understand their meaning, so he asked: “Venerable sir, if someone were to ask you about this matter, how would you explain it?”

Nagasena replied: “This body of mine, from youth until maturity, has always been but a single body continuously nourished and brought to maturity.”

Nagasena then asked the king: “If someone lights a lamp at the beginning of the night, can it be kept burning until dawn?”

The king replied: “It can.”

Nagasena asked again: “Is the flame burning in that lamp at the beginning of the night, in the middle of the night, and near dawn one and the same flame?”

The king replied: “It is not.”

Nagasena asked again: “After lighting the lamp at the beginning of the night, is it lit again at midnight? Is it lit again near dawn?”

The king replied: “No. The lamp was lit at the beginning of the night, and its flame continued burning upon the wick until dawn.”

Nagasena said: “The continuity and transformation of a person’s consciousness are likewise. One dies in one place and is born in another. From birth until old age and death, there is only that single continuity of consciousness; afterward, it proceeds toward another life. Because it continues and changes in this way, it is neither truly the same as nor separate from the preceding consciousness. After a person dies, consciousness must proceed toward a new life.

“For example, milk is used to make butter, cheese, ghee, and so forth. Could that ghee, cheese, butter, and so forth then be called milk again? If someone spoke in that way, would it be correct?”

The king replied: “Such a statement would not be correct.”

Nagasena said: “A person’s consciousness is like that milk. From milk are made butter, cheese, ghee, and so forth. A person’s consciousness is likewise. Through consciousness, one takes birth; from birth, one grows to maturity, ages, and dies. After death, one is born again. As soon as this body perishes, another body is assumed, like two rulers mutually connected as though they were one.”

The king praised him, saying: “Excellent! Excellent!”

11. NO FURTHER REBIRTH

The king again asked Nagasena: “If a person will not be reborn in a future life, can that person know this for himself?”

Nagasena replied: “Certainly. That person can know it for himself.”

The king asked: “How does he know?”

Nagasena replied: “He knows for himself that he no longer has emotional attachments or amorous clinging, no longer has sensual desire, and no longer has evil states within his mind. Therefore, he knows for himself that he will not be reborn in a future life.”

Nagasena then asked the king: “Suppose a farmer plows his field and sows seed, and at harvest time stores the crop in his granary. In the following season, he neither plows the field nor sows seed, but merely consumes the grain stored in the granary. Can that farmer expect to harvest a new crop of grain?”

The king said: “That farmer certainly cannot expect such a thing.”

Nagasena asked: “How does that farmer know that there will be no new harvest of grain?”

The king replied: “Because the farmer has not plowed the field or sown seed again, he knows that he cannot expect a new harvest of grain.”

Nagasena said: “One who practices and attains the Way is likewise. He knows for himself that he has severed emotional bonds, attachment, pleasure, and pain, and that his mind is no longer covetous. Therefore, he knows for himself that he will not be reborn in a future life.”

12. THE WISDOM OF ONE WHO HAS ATTAINED THE WAY

The king again asked: “Does one who has brought rebirth to an end possess, in this very life, wisdom surpassing that of ordinary people?”

Nagasena replied: “Certainly. That person possesses wisdom surpassing that of ordinary people.”

The king asked again: “Can that person discern and understand clearly?”

Nagasena replied: “Certainly, that person can discern and understand clearly.”

The king asked: “Are possessing wisdom and discerning and understanding clearly two different things?”

Nagasena replied: “Those two things are the same.”

The king asked: “Can a person who possesses wisdom and clear discernment understand all things? Are there any things that such a person cannot comprehend?”

Nagasena replied: “There are things he comprehends and things he does not comprehend.”

The king asked: “What does he comprehend? What does he not comprehend?”

Nagasena replied: “He cannot comprehend things he has never previously studied. He can comprehend things he has studied. Yet all who possess wisdom comprehend that all things pass away into emptiness and do not conform to one’s wishes; they understand that whenever the human mind clings to pleasure, it plants the causes of suffering and leads to suffering. Those who possess wisdom clearly understand that the arising and passing away of things do not endure; therefore, they differ from ordinary people.”

The king asked: “When a person possesses wisdom, where is delusion at that time?”

Nagasena replied: “When a person possesses wisdom, delusion naturally ceases. It is like a person carrying a bright lamp into a dark house: the house is immediately illuminated, and the darkness vanishes at once. Wisdom is like the bright lamp, and delusion is like darkness. When a person possesses wisdom, every form of delusion must be dispelled.”

The king asked again: “Once all delusion has ceased, where is wisdom at that time?”

Nagasena replied: “After a person has used wisdom to dispel all delusion, that wisdom itself also disappears. Yet what wisdom has brought about continues to remain.

“It is like a person who lights a lamp at night in order to write a letter. After the lamp has gone out, the letter still remains. Wisdom is likewise. Once it has fulfilled its purpose for a person, wisdom disappears, but what has been attained still remains.”

The king said: “Venerable sir, you say that after wisdom has fulfilled its purpose for a person, it disappears. Please explain this statement further.”

Nagasena replied: “Suppose a person, wishing to guard against fire, prepares five large jars of water. When a fire breaks out, he immediately uses the water in those five jars to extinguish it. After the fire has been extinguished, would he still intend to make further use of those jars?”

The king replied: “He certainly would no longer wish to use those jars. The fire has already been extinguished; what further use would he have for them?”

Nagasena said: “A practitioner uses five wholesome states of mind to extinguish all evil, just as those jars of water extinguish the fire.”

13. THE FIVE WHOLESOME STATES OF MIND

The king asked: “What are the five wholesome states of mind?”

Nagasena replied: “The first is faith in good and evil. The second is not disparaging the scriptures or the precepts. The third is diligence. The fourth is earnestly keeping wholesome things in mind. The fifth is single-mindedly recollecting the Dharma of the Way. These are the five wholesome states. One who can practice in accordance with these five wholesome states immediately gains lucid wisdom, understands that this life and body, like all things, do not endure, understands the truth of suffering, understands that nothing proceeds according to one’s wishes, and understands the truth that nothing whatsoever can be possessed.”

“Suppose a physician brought five kinds of medicine to the home of a sick person. He administered those five medicines to the patient, who was thereby cured of the illness. Afterward, would the physician still wish to use those medicines?”

The king replied: “Once the illness has been cured, naturally he would no longer wish to use those medicines.”

Nāgasena said: “Those five kinds of medicine are like the five wholesome qualities, such as wisdom. The physician is like one who trains in the Path. The illness is like the various evils. Ignorance is like the patient. Having understood the Path and departed far from the worldly realm is like the patient being cured. Once wisdom has been perfected, the practitioner has transcended worldliness and attained the Dharma of the Path; wisdom then extinguishes itself. Suppose a valiant warrior entered battle, aimed at his enemy, and discharged five arrows, thereby gaining victory. Once he had won, would he still wish to recover those five arrows?”

The king replied: “No, he could not wish to recover those five arrows.”

Nāgasena said: “The five arrows are like a person’s five qualities of clear understanding. Through wisdom, the wise attain the Path, just as that valiant warrior defeated his enemy. The various evils are also like the enemy. A practitioner upholds the five wholesome qualities and completely destroys all evils. When all evils have been destroyed, wholesome wisdom will surely arise. Through wholesome wisdom, the practitioner attains liberation.
14. DOES ONE WHO HAS ATTAINED THE PATH EXPERIENCE SUFFERING?

The king again asked: “One who has attained the Path will no longer be reborn in a future life. Does such a person still experience suffering?”

Nāgasena replied: “There is suffering, and there is no suffering.”

The king asked: “What does it mean to say that there is suffering and that there is no suffering?”

Nāgasena replied: “The body still experiences suffering, but the mind no longer experiences suffering.”

The king asked: “What does this mean?”

Nāgasena replied: “The body experiences suffering because, so long as this body continues to exist, there must be suffering. The mind has cast off all evils and completely severed craving and desire; therefore, it no longer suffers.”

15. ATTAINING THE PATH AND ENTERING NIRVANA

The king asked: “If one who has attained the Path still cannot bring the body’s suffering to an end, has that person not yet attained nirvana?”

Nāgasena replied: “One who has attained the Path no longer harbors attachment born of affection and love. Although the body suffers, the mind remains peaceful and joyful. What further attainment of the Path could such a person seek?”

The king said: “If a person has already attained the Path, why then remain in this world?”

Nāgasena replied: “It is like fruit on a tree that has not yet ripened: it cannot be forced. When it has ripened, there is no need to wait any longer. This humble monk now neither seeks to live nor seeks to die; I merely await the appointed time, and then I shall depart.”